From: Steve Smith (ssmith@teksell.com)
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 12:05:17 GMT-3
I agree with you Jason. I have always had a HUGE problem with people
saying "I am working on my CCNP/MCSE/CNE so I can get a job in IT". I
worked for a guy that at raise time would always say why should I pay
you X amount a year more when I can get a college grad who just passed
his MCSE and will do the job for 15K less a year. I would just say well
when the network stops because his server is BSOD I wonder who will get
it back up the quickest mr.paper MCSE or Mr. Been doing Microsoft
installs since 1993? As you know the CNE was a huge cert 10-12 years
ago. If you had it you where the man in OS. Then every jumbronee that
wanted to get "good pay in IT" started quitting there job at 7/11 and
getting their paper CNE. Now most companies go CNE? HAHAHAHAHAHA! So!
There REALLY needs to be some sort of rule that says you have to have X
amount of experience, documented, before you can take the test. Just
like the CISSP test. No offense to those who have quit 7/11, started at
the bottom and worked their way up. I started at help desk and worked my
way up also.
Regards,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Jason Graun
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:38 AM
To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do
know of guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but they
do still exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE? Is
100k-110k acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring to
where they want a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that is
just insane. If people are taking those jobs it is mainly because they
have no real world experience and have just been in labs all the time,
which is what cheapens it for the rest of us and the employers not
understand what they want, they want a server/network in one, that is ok
but not going to be a CCIE. I know guys that have had little to no
experience but went to Cyscoexpert or IPexpert, etc... And passed
because the instructors understand what is going on and then relay that
to the student. But that student doesn't understand the fundamentals of
Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They can type some
router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the concepts. I am
speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I have dealt with a
consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what proxy arp was, a 101
level concept, and had no idea how to run a project or meet timelines
and not to mention he had trouble understanding routing scenarios I
would consider remedial for a CCIE. He never learned the basics of
network communication; he just kept doing labs and never had real world
experience. I came from a desktop support role into server/application
support and then into network, it was business Darwinism, only the
strong shall survive. Most of the really good network guys I have meet,
CCIE or not, have made a similar progression. I know guys that have
told me they are getting there CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never
mind that whole experience thing and understanding what they are doing
they assume that employers are going to look at them and say "wow a CCIE
he must be worth 150k and know everything" which is not true. People
will get paid well if they are willing to step up to the plate, take on
some responsibility, use good judgment and think it through. Check out
the salary survey on www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
Jason
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Sattler
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
To: security@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are gone.
MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs req's are
CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the difference. I know
hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to dime a dozen. So what
does that say for the certification? well, there are alot more CCIE's it
appears and a lot less demand for highly certified network engineers. I
have noticed lately a difference of knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a
meeting versus someone with one of 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific
knowledge, like they went to boot camp for 2 weeks and when discussing
anything beyond the core of knowledge for CCIE certification they are
lost. Would that qualify as "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with
years of experience either) I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would
blame the boot campers and exam crammers.
Scott,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Hill" <Matt.Hill@aapt.com.au>
To: <security@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
> I disagree Brad.
>
> A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing
> that has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability
> to be flexible according to what the market requires.
>
> I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the individual
> concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have
> done just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this
> year.
>
> I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or prefer
> a CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the fact
> that CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than
> CCIE 12xxx would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
>
> I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs
> who are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
> Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
>
> Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
>
> Cheers,
> Matt
>
> --
> Matt Hill
> Network Engineering
> Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
> 180-188 Burnley St
> Richmond, Vic
> 3121
>
> v: +61 3 8687 5739
> f: +61 3 8414 3115
> e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
> u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
> m: ask and you may receive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Brad Spencer
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>
> I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper
> CCIE' but I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry
> will recognize
> the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
> certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
> pre-October
> slots. Well maybe a little. :)
> Brad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Jimmy Zhang
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: all september seats are gone
>
> Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
> September still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
>
>
>
> ---
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