From: Steve Smith (ssmith@teksell.com)
Date: Wed Jul 14 2004 - 12:23:48 GMT-3
LOL!!! I hear ya!
-----Original Message-----
From: jgraun@comcast.net [mailto:jgraun@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 10:21 AM
To: Steve Smith; Scott Sattler; security@groupstudy.com
Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
Thanks for the support Steve! MCSE now stands for Must Call Someone
Else when I did it, it still had some value. I am concerned CCIE will
be Cisco Certifies Idiots Everyday.
Jason
> I agree with you Jason. I have always had a HUGE problem with people
> saying "I am working on my CCNP/MCSE/CNE so I can get a job in IT". I
> worked for a guy that at raise time would always say why should I pay
> you X amount a year more when I can get a college grad who just passed
> his MCSE and will do the job for 15K less a year. I would just say
> well when the network stops because his server is BSOD I wonder who
> will get it back up the quickest mr.paper MCSE or Mr. Been doing
> Microsoft installs since 1993? As you know the CNE was a huge cert
> 10-12 years ago. If you had it you where the man in OS. Then every
> jumbronee that wanted to get "good pay in IT" started quitting there
> job at 7/11 and getting their paper CNE. Now most companies go CNE?
> HAHAHAHAHAHA! So! There REALLY needs to be some sort of rule that says
> you have to have X amount of experience, documented, before you can
> take the test. Just like the CISSP test. No offense to those who have
> quit 7/11, started at the bottom and worked their way up. I started at
> help desk and worked my way up also.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Jason Graun
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:38 AM
> To: 'Scott Sattler'; security@groupstudy.com
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: all September seats are gone
>
>
> I somewhat agree with the financial statement you made, however I do
> know of guys getting $150k offers still, those are not as often but
> they do still exist. Also what do you consider low pay for a CCIE?
> Is 100k-110k acceptable? I do see those job posting you are referring
> to where they want a MCSE and a CCIE for 60k-70k or maybe 80k and that
> is just insane. If people are taking those jobs it is mainly because
> they have no real world experience and have just been in labs all the
> time, which is what cheapens it for the rest of us and the employers
> not understand what they want, they want a server/network in one, that
> is ok but not going to be a CCIE. I know guys that have had little to
> no experience but went to Cyscoexpert or IPexpert, etc... And passed
> because the instructors understand what is going on and then relay
> that to the student. But that student doesn't understand the
> fundamentals of Operating Systems, Digital Communication, etc... They
> can type some router stuff and that is it, they cannot apply the
> concepts. I am speaking from experience here and not out of my ass; I
> have dealt with a consultant, who was a CCIE that did not know what
> proxy arp was, a 101 level concept, and had no idea how to run a
> project or meet timelines and not to mention he had trouble
> understanding routing scenarios I would consider remedial for a CCIE.
> He never learned the basics of network communication; he just kept
> doing labs and never had real world experience. I came from a desktop
> support role into server/application support and then into network, it
> was business Darwinism, only the strong shall survive. Most of the
> really good network guys I have meet, CCIE or not, have made a similar
> progression. I know guys that have told me they are getting there
> CCIE so then can get a job in IT?! Never mind that whole experience
> thing and understanding what they are doing they assume that employers
> are going to look at them and say "wow a CCIE he must be worth 150k
> and know everything" which is not true. People will get paid well if
> they are willing to step up to the plate, take on some responsibility,
> use good judgment and think it through. Check out the salary survey
> on www.tcpmag.com for more info on pay rates.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> Of Scott Sattler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:25 AM
> To: security@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: all september seats are gone
>
> All I know is that the financial benefit for obtaining a CCIE are
> gone. MCSE's and CISSP's make the same amount of money now. The jobs
> req's are CCNP or CCIE, many employers cannot distinguish the
> difference. I know hiring CCIE's went from impossibly expensive to
> dime a dozen. So what does that say for the certification? well, there
> are alot more CCIE's it appears and a lot less demand for highly
> certified network engineers. I have noticed lately a difference of
> knowledge with a CCIE 1x,xxx in a meeting versus someone with one of
> 5,xxx, That 1x,xxx has VERY specific knowledge, like they went to boot
> camp for 2 weeks and when discussing anything beyond the core of
> knowledge for CCIE certification they are lost. Would that qualify as
> "paper" CCIE? (and it has nothing to do with years of experience
> either) I wouldn't blame cisco for this, I would blame the boot
> campers and exam crammers.
>
> Scott,
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Hill" <Matt.Hill@aapt.com.au>
> To: <security@groupstudy.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:32 AM
> Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
>
>
> > I disagree Brad.
> >
> > A CCIE is still a CCIE and should be recognised as such. One thing
> > that has made the CCIE certification what it is today is its ability
> > to be flexible according to what the market requires.
> >
> > I daresay that CCIE 1026 (whoever it may be, respect to the
> > individual
>
> > concerned), who did the original 2-day exam 10 years ago would have
> > done just as much work as someone doing the exam sometime late this
> > year.
> >
> > I don't think that employer, or anyone else should belittle or
> > prefer
> > a CCIE just because the date is more favourable. Except for the
fact
> > that CCIE 1026 would invariably have 10 more years experience than
> > CCIE 12xxx would (no disrespect to 12xxx either).
> >
> > I think we can also extrapolate something similar to refer to CCIEs
> > who are certified in retired streams such as ISP Dial, Design & WAN
> > Switching. These people are still CCIEs.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for reading my rant.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Matt
> >
> > --
> > Matt Hill
> > Network Engineering
> > Alcatel Australia Pty Ltd
> > 180-188 Burnley St
> > Richmond, Vic
> > 3121
> >
> > v: +61 3 8687 5739
> > f: +61 3 8414 3115
> > e: matt.hill@aapt.com.au
> > u: http://www.alcatel.com.au
> > m: ask and you may receive
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > Of Brad Spencer
> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:58 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: RE: all september seats are gone
> >
> > I wouldn't call a pre-October CCIE Security certification a 'paper
> > CCIE' but I would call it a legacy CCIE. I hope some in the industry
> > will recognize
> > the difference between a pre-October and post-October CCIE Security
> > certification. No offence intended to the R/S guys grabbing up
> > pre-October
> > slots. Well maybe a little. :)
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
> > Of Jimmy Zhang
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:48 PM
> > To: security@groupstudy.com
> > Subject: all september seats are gone
> >
> > Just found that almost all September seats are gone in SJ. (Early
> > September still has a few seats). October 1 is coming ...
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
> >
> >
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