From: de Witt, Duane (duane.dewitt@siemens.com)
Date: Mon Apr 03 2006 - 14:56:40 GMT-3
I'm curious, what management techniques were applied 20 years ago and
which of them still apply? JIT was hot some years ago, now not so much
anymore. Same for Six Sigma. Management is exactly the same as any other
skill, you need to keep it current or you will fall behind.
Regards
Duane
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
CCIEin2006
Sent: 03 April 2006 04:49 PM
To: Cisco Engineer
Cc: cisco@groupstudy.com; ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE vs. degree
Although I don't agree with all your points, I do agree that an MBA is
better than CCIE in 2 ways:
1. As a CCIE working for an organization there is a ceiling to your
earning
potential somewhere in the $150k range. (There may be a few exceptions
but
for the most part few companies will pay you more than $120k no matter
how
good you are). An MBA can move up to become a CEO with earnings in the
multi-million dollar range.
2. MBA has permanance in the following ways:
A. You don't have to renew it every 2 years.
B. MBA will still be recognized 20 years from now. Will the CCIE still
be
valued 20 years from now? Maybe we should ask the people who got their
Master Certified Novell Engineer certification ten years ago...
On 4/3/06, Cisco Engineer <hsm_p@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> From time to time I read people trying to compare CCIE with some kind
of
> degree; I thought that this may be cool to share my own experience.
In
> general, I agree with what nrf has mentioned throughout the last many
> years!
> But in some points we are different.
>
> Let me share my background first. I got my Bachelor of Applied
Science
> (Engineering degree) back in 1998. And then I work as a Network
Engineer
> until last August. During the last six years, I was working full time
as
> a
> Network engineer, got my CCXX (I am a CCIE of 7xxx series in RS
(second
> try)
> and Security (first try)) and picked up Master of Engineering and MBA
> (from
> top 25 US b-schools) along the way (M.Eng/MBA+CCIE+full time work).
Then
> I
> quitted my job last year and return to school full time (yes, some
CCIE
> like
> me switched career) to study PhD in operation management (from top-25
> b-school). In terms of the Cisco cert, it took me 2 years in the
industry
> to get from nothing to CCIE. During the last 1 year where I actively
> study
> for CCIE, I spent 3 or 4 hours during weekday and 3 or 4 hours during
> weekend to study. (I dont consider myself to be very smart, because
I
> have
> seen so many smarter people around me!) Therefore, with my
background, I
> hope that it makes my point a bit more persuasive.
>
> I know that you may find some of the comparison is like comparing
apple to
> orange. So please bear with me... (You are free to delete this email
if
> you
> dislike my comparison.) Because otherwise, every comparison can be
apple
> to
> orange, even comparing CCIE Security to CCIE Voice.
>
> 1. Compare CCIE to PhD or even to Master degree (assume it is not from
> some
> no-name school) is ridiculous. According to my own experience, CCIE
at
> most
> can be as hard as a second year calculus (yes, just a single second
year
> course, not even a bachelor degree). The content of CCIE is not
difficult
> at all, assume that you can master differential equation.
>
> 2. The passing rate of CCIE lab exam is much lower than the passing
rate
> of
> any courses (PhD, Master, and Bachelor). There are two reasons.
First,
> there are lots of low-quality people taking the CCIE lab exam, which
drag
> down the CCIE passing rate. Second, it really takes a longer time to
> study
> for the CCIE lab exam than a second year calculus. It is because
first
> year
> calculus has already prepared me for the second year calculus. Also,
it
> is
> difficult to have the time, resource to study. And most of all, this
is
> an
> expensive and stressful exam! All things being equal (no stress,
cheap
> exam), I think that for people who can get an A or B in the second
year
> calculus, I think that he can pass the CCIE lab exam within 3 months
after
> CCNA level if he can study full time, with all equipment, have all the
> material and have a teacher to ask when he/she had problem.
>
> 3. CCIE is not god of networking. CCIE is only god of passing CCIE
exam
> and
> nothing else. For instances, you don't need to know Poisson process
or
> any
> queuing algorithm (you don't call yourself "knowing" FIFO/PQ/WFQ if
all
> you
> know is just some simple calculation or configuration) to pass the
CCIE
> written exam (and for the lab exam, you need to know NOTHING about
> queuing,
> other than how to configure it). I never claim myself good at
networking
> at
> all. When I need to configure a network, all I can say is that,
"let's
> see
> how far I can go". (I don't mean that I am lack of self-confidence in
> front
> of the customer. I just mean that I really know that there is so many
> things
> that I have absolutely no idea about.) Therefore, expect some CCIE
coming
> to your company to know how to complete all your requirement is
> ridiculous.
> I can fake to know lots in front of others, but in the bottom of my
heart,
> I
> know that I have many limits.
>
> 4. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, PhD is god of their own
field.
> This is oxymoron if you are PhD but you are not god in your own field.
> After you have spent five years in something as narrow as, let say,
> Virtual
> Link of OSPF (not everything about OSPF, but only the virtual link),
then
> you should be god of Virtual link of OSPF. Therefore, a PhD knows
> everything about nothing. To continue my analogy, if you ask a PhD
about
> a
> stub OSPF network (nevertheless other routing protocol, or switching,
or
> security/voice), that PhD may not know. (Contrast to a CCIE, who knows
> little bit about several Cisco things)
>
> 5. The average salary of a CCIE (assume with the same year of
experience)
> is
> higher than the average salary of any degree (except MBA). A history
full
> professor only makes $40k, and a business professor (on the high end)
> would
> make about $100k. But a CCIE would likely make more than $100k (even
> though
> I made less than $50k when I was a CCIE)
>
> 6. As opposed to what nrf once mentioned, being admitted is NOT the
most
> difficult part of graduating from a top school. It is certainly true
that
> being admitted to a top school is tough. (Being admited to the
bachelor
> degree of top school is very hard, and being admited to a top school's
PhD
> program is almost impossible. You think that the average passing rate
of
> CCIE lab is 3 times is low? What about the admission rate of top
school
> is
> 3-10%, with all the applicant are the best of the best in their own
> school?)
> But if you think that you will graduate simply because you are
admitted,
> you are dead wrong. Of course getting through the once-per-year
admission
> cycle is very hard. However, the project and the homework will kill
you!
> Everything else (compare to the intense 8 hours CCIE lab) is walk in
park.
>
> 7. (Since I am interested to be a professor, let me devote my last
point
> for
> those who are currently a professor). Continue from #6. If you think
> that
> graduating from a top PhD school is tough, then how about able to find
a
> tenure-track job from a top school? And if you think that you are
hired
> by
> a top school is tough, how about making the tenure? (my point is,
> difficult
> never ends...)
>
> My post by no means to devalue CCIE certificate. Having a degree
would
> only
> get you the ticket for admission. So does having a CCIE certificate.
The
> rest is still up to you. However, it is true that having a CCIE or
having
> a
> degree have a strong relationship to being able to success in your
career.
> therefore, this is a good and quick tool for the HR to filter out lots
of
> people. Of course there is outlier, such as Bill Gates. However, do
you
> think that you are the next Bill Gates? You may think so, but the HR
or
> the
> hiring manager may not share your thought! If they don't hire you,
then
> start another company, get rich, and buy that company (like how AOL
> purchased Times)
>
> This is my 2 cents. (That's the beauty about academic. In the
> networking
> world, there is only one way to do stuff (aka Cisco way) but in
academia,
> you have freedom to express your controversial thought!)
>
>
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