From: John Jones (acer0001@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Oct 03 2007 - 15:12:57 ART
Very well said Scott.
Darby, if you put as much studying as you put into this kind of stuff, you
should the the lead IOS engineer for Cisco by now.
John
On 10/3/07, Scott Vermillion <scott_ccie_list@it-ag.com> wrote:
>
> Darby,
>
> Honestly, you seem to be looking at this through the lens of a college
> ethics class. That's not how the business world works. Cisco will
> evaluate
> this strictly from a bottom line perspective. Nothing more, nothing less.
> It's business.
>
> Is Cisco being damaged by this? Please make the case if so. Specifically
> identify where the revenue is lost.
>
> Does Cisco stand to gain from this? I have already argued that they do.
> Again, CCIEs are a boon to Cisco and its products. Think of it - Cisco
> has
> to pay to train their internal sales and support staff. Yet there stands
> this group of outside zealots who are willing to put their personal (and
> sometimes even our professional) lives aside to become masters of all
> things
> Cisco...on their own nickel!! And then, having earned the number or at
> least having come close, they return to industry and set about
> implementing
> Cisco solutions left and right. Sure, Juniper might have an equivalent
> solution, but Cisco is what they know and so Cisco is what they
> sell/implement.
>
> Would it be reasonable for Cisco to insist that Dynamips CCIE candidates
> purchase IOS as a stand-alone product for study purposes? I think not,
> although I would do it if that's what it took. The problem is that this
> would create an elitist scenario, with entire swaths of the planet no
> longer
> able to pursue this already outrageously expensive certification (and no
> doubt Cisco enjoys selling its products just as much in Country A as it
> does
> in Country B). BTW, I think if you argue that a Dynamips candidate should
> be forking over cash for IOS, you likely also need to make the argument
> that
> a gray market hardware candidate should be doing the same (unless they are
> buying boxes with current code, the correct feature set for study, and the
> license is legally transferable, which I'm not clear that it is). And oh
> by
> the way, times the number of boxes in each lab! At least with "ghostios =
> true" in Dynamips, I am only putting a single instance of IOS to use, no
> matter how many router instances I have in my lab topology!
>
> You yourself have said you don't use Dynamips. So what are you hoping to
> achieve here, anyway? Stir up a bunch of stink and force Cisco to take
> some
> public position, presumably against the use of IOS in Dynamips for study?
> Why? Would you sleep better knowing that you never used Dynamips and that
> now, as a result of your heroic and super ethical stink stirring actions,
> nobody else ever would again either? And as for:
>
> >Does anyone find it disturbing that the new generation
> >of Cisco Certified Wanna-be's are more concerned about
> >such matters than the exisiting Cisco Certified
> >Engineers?
>
> Perhaps a life in the clergy would better suit some of these new wannabes
> who can't or won't understand the business world for what it really is.
> Because certainly Cisco has the means to take legal action against any
> perceived threat they might encounter. So it would seem some of these new
> uber-ethical wannabes are more concerned about Cisco than Cisco. I think
> we
> can trust them to determine what's in their best interest and what's not.
>
> Now back to my regularly scheduled Dynamips studies, whether they meet
> anyone else's moral standards or not...
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
> Darby Weaver
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:54 AM
> To: Darby Weaver; Joseph Brunner; 'Scott M Vermillion'; 'Cisco
> certification'
> Subject: Re: OT: Dynamips - Is it legal to use it with Cisco's IOS for
> Study?
>
> Well,
>
> I've got some feedback but none from the people I was
> hoping to get it from yet.
>
> So far the biggest issue with anyone using Dynamips by
> my estimation is the IOS License Agreement that you
> click while downloading the IOS saying that you are in
> possession of and have paid for the IOS you are
> downloading and are going to use it under the terms of
> the agreement...
>
> Now considering many people find the IOS on the net
> (kinds black market) and others just ask friends (I've
> seen the requests on many forums), then those people
> do not know what I am talking about - since they
> obviously never agreed to anything.
>
> It also seems to me and to others here, that Cisco has
> turned a blind eye to individuals who are using the
> latest Cisco IOS's to study and become certified in
> the usage of the IOS.
>
> Cisco even markets the idea of how dedicated CCIE's
> are to get the coveted CCIE certification and those of
> us who stil work diligently to get our own CCIE
> certification or even other certifications at this
> stage.
>
> Now, I guess the issue would be if one actually tried
> to market a PC with Dynamips and use it to perform as
> a virtual Cisco Router (all perfomance issues and
> other issues aside) - I'm not a Dynamips user, but
> have read where the Dynamips is being used to interact
> with Cisco Switches at the moment. So I would think
> this is plausible to some extent if it is not
> practical in production for any serious networks.
>
> From speaking to my local Cisco SE's in the past, I
> know Cisco frowns on gray market activity as well
> (resell of Cisco gear), without which many of us hear
> would not have our own labs or even likely have
> achieved our own certification status. However, the
> context of the frown is important - since if one buys
> gray versus new - it does affect Cisco's bottom line
> and since their product works for many years past the
> support (a high quality product) they get what they
> developed.
>
> We are ultimately buying the Cisco IOS as much as or
> even more than the actual hardware.
>
> So there are legal, moral, and ethical imperatives in
> this question I have sincerely asked.
>
> Does anyone find it disturbing that the new generation
> of Cisco Certified Wanna-be's are more concerned about
> such matters than the exisiting Cisco Certified
> Engineers?
>
> These are the people who will be working for many of
> the nation's and the world's top companies. I would
> think more people would be concerned and would at
> least someone with authority would take a stand for
> good or ill, even if it is what none of want to hear.
>
> The best we have now is hearsay from the author of
> Dynamips from an anonymous Cisco employee.
>
> So is it ok to use this product - just since Cisco is
> a big company and we are just the ants in the machine
> and oversells product or allows product to be oversold
> but frowns on re-sale?
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Darby Weaver <darbyweaver@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > At this point you think this question would have
> > been
> > answered completely and concisely.
> >
> > On a forum I am a member of, some of our members are
> > concerned about the legality of using Dynamips and
> > the
> > IOS and violating the terms of usage of the IOS as
> > provided by Cisco's copyright or fair usage etc.
> > Whatever the exact legal language may be.
> >
> > A newly formed "watchdog forum" called certguard was
> > asked about this matter and they consulted the
> > author
> > of Dynamips and he gave his response - available on
> > the certguard forum.
> >
> > Now my question is primarily aimed at the vendors
> > here
> > since I suspect they have the answer already since
> > they are offering lab workbooks (one of which I'm
> > preparing to by at this very moment) and are
> > generally
> > condoning and supporting the usdage of Dynamips for.
> >
> > I do not mean to sound "out of my mind" by asking
> > the
> > question, since obviously this is the best lab prep
> > tool since a real router came along... and got
> > affordable on ebay (I do not think Cisco is happy
> > about that market either - used/gray) but it is a
> > part
> > of life now too.
> >
> > So here are the questions:
> >
> > 1. Are users of Dynamips using the IOS illegally and
> > against what the IOS was designed to do by using it
> > with Dynamips?
> >
> > 2. Obviously people can do whatever they want in
> > their
> > own homes, but are forums and lists like groupstudy,
> > or even vendors to be considered
> > ethically-challenged
> > for condoning and even recommending the usage of
> > Dynamips in this fashion.
> >
> > 3. What is Cisco's official take on the matter?
> >
> > It may sound odd to some of us here, but I have a
> > very
> > devout group of upcoming networking engineers who
> > care
> > very much what Cisco thinks and they do not wish to
> > be
> > amoral, nor appear unethical in any way, and while
> > some really want to use the product, do not want to
> > publicly create a legal issue for themselves and the
> > forums/lists they frequent in the future.
> >
> >
> > So if anyone has the definitive answer and I suspect
> > guys like NetMasterClass, InternetworkExpert and
> > others who are catering to the use of Dynamips have
> > already bridged this question and have a firm and
> > quotable answer from Cisco that is going to be very
> > satisfactoty.
> >
> > Sorry if this has already come up and I missed it,
> > but
> > I read GS alot and did not think it passed my eyes
> > before.
> >
> > I must admit that since I own several real racks of
> > gear and always have at least one fully reachable
> > from
> > anywhere on the Internet, this has never been a
> > question for me, but I am also concerned since I,
> > too,
> > am seeing a definate need and place for this
> > outstanding little tool called Dynamips. And I love
> > the fact that guys like InternetworkExpert support a
> > workbook dedicated to it as well.
> >
> >
> > - I know what is this guy thinking at 2:30am in the
> > morning... I've got an appointment tomorrow that
> > scares the hell out of me and I'm having trouble
> > sleeping - no it is not a lab.
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
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