From: Rahmlow, Howard F. (Howard.F.Rahmlow@unisys.com)
Date: Wed Oct 10 2007 - 15:41:18 ART
Cisco tried the minimum point thing before, did not work. That was back
when it was a 2 days lab, and lab dates were real hard to get. All it
did was create a group that wanted to give the lab a shot, knowing they
just needed X number of points, and then come back again and try for
real.
My 2 cents is to change the written. Keep the test they have now, and
add a second written to be taken later that would include maybe 10 lab
simulations, like seen on the CCNP tests. These could be pulled at
random from a pool of simulations. After that part is passed the lab
test could be scheduled.
Howard
-----Original Message-----
From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf Of
sheherezada@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:36 PM
To: Scott Morris
Cc: Burkett, Michael; Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns;
Brian Dennis; ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
comserv@groupstudy.com
Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
Totally agree with you.
Additionally, let's take some costs into consideration. I think that
the most cost effective ways to free the queue and somehow to improve
integrity would be:
1) Introducing a penalty for the test takers that do not make at least
40 points at their latest attempt (say wait 6 months)
2) Decrease the number of free attempts for the Cisco employees (come
on, three free attempts seems too much)
A troubleshooting section - or a interview with the proctor - before
even seeing the lab would be a good thing, I suppose, but:
1) I was very disappointed by the troubleshooting I saw in my SP exam
- it was quite trivial to spot the errors. Mismatching the feature
set and the task was much more fun to figure out.
2) English is not a well spoken language by many of us.
Mihai
On 10/10/07, Scott Morris <smorris@ipexpert.com> wrote:
> However, the concern over cheating and sharing with the Assessor
doesn't
> give any DIFFERENT indicator, it just puts an extra thing in the
process.
>
> Cheating on the Assessor is entirely possible as well, just like for
the
> CCIE lab.
>
> That's why (my opinion) a more intense troubleshooting first stage
exam
> would yield better measurement of someone's abilities.
Troubleshooting is
> an art form, you either know things or you don't.
>
> Just my thoughts!
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
JNCIE-M
> #153, CISSP, et al.
> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>
> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>
> smorris@ipexpert.com
>
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Burkett, Michael [mailto:Michael.Burkett@c-a-m.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:19 AM
> To: Brad Ellis; smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric
Dobyns;
> Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
>
> If you are talking about evaluating readiness before you are allowed
to book
> the real exam break the CCIE track into three parts.
>
> Step 1
> Pass CCIE Written Qualification Exam
> Step 2
> Pass Assessor Type Exam, 2-3 hours, via remote equipment that can only
be
> accessed from you local Cisco office, so no notes cannot be used, and
its
> monitored to keep exam integrity. Don't pass this you can even
schedule the
> Real Lab.
> Step 3
> CCIE Lab Exam, with 60 days between attempts.
>
> Michael Burkett
> CCIE#17084
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
Of Brad
> Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 3:46 PM
> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Scott,
>
> I understood what you were referring too; ie, someone's readiness to
take
> the lab exam. I think the written exam should do a better job of
reflecting
> this "readiness" level.
>
> I'm waiting to see that last "notch" that's going to be on top of the
CCIE.
> Can you imagine the wait time to schedule an exam for a review board
run
> format? Could be a 2-3 year waiting period. :)
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:44 PM
> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> I'm not talking about the written/qualification exam. I'm talking
about
> when someone goes into the lab!
>
> The written isn't supposed to be a measure of someone ability at the
lab.
> It never was. It's always been a differentiator between theory
knowledge
> and doing/application knowledge.
>
> I'd keep the written the way it is. I actually like the new written
exam (a
> little too much EIGRP still, but all in all good). It's just the
8-hour
> timeframe in the lab that I would like to see changed, and that's the
part
> that is best suited for filtering anyway.
>
> With all the testking, et al companies out there selling the exam and
all
> the testing centers that you can go to, there's not any good way to
control
> people on that exam. So wait till they come in for the big one.
That's the
> "do or don't do" place.
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
JNCIE-M
> #153, CISSP, et al.
> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>
> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>
> smorris@ipexpert.com
>
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:36 PM
> To: smorris@ipexpert.com; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian
> Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Scott,
>
> I agree with you 100%. The main problem is the "qualification exam"
ie,
> the
> "written exam" isn't a very good measure of an engineer's readiness to
> attempt the lab exam. I think there needs to be a legitimate
> qualification
> exam that truly can attest to the level of the engineers competency.
For
> CCIE R&S, there used to be wireless on the written exam.
> Now there is MPLS on the written. Both technologies not being covered
by
> the
> lab exam. How is this an accurate measure of the engineer's abilities
to
> attempt the lab exam? It's not! There needs to be a more accurate
> measurement in place. Once that happens, I think the wait time between
> attempts will diminish. I also think the length of time you have to
wait
> between attempts should correlate to your last lab exam score.
> Opening up some more testing centers wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Just
> my
> $.02
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Morris [mailto:smorris@ipexpert.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:34 PM
> To: Brad Ellis; Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> If they want to make serious progress in that idea, then they'll take
a
> different approach.
>
> 1. Start with a troubleshooting lab. 1-2 hours. If you can't figure
> enough things out to fix, you obviously don't know what's going on and
> shouldn't get to the "real" lab.
>
> 2. Shorten the real lab to 6-7 hours. People who don't make
> troubleshooting won't even see the real thing and therefore can't
> possibly
> copy/memorize it 'cause they went home early.
>
> Taking the same lab again is only helpful if you've figured out the
> answers
> and can actually make things work! But splitting things up like this
> will
> give a higher test of people's deep understanding of technologies
rather
> than any sort of memorization for stuff going on.
>
> Just my thoughts. But raising the price or increasing the time
between
> labs
> will irritate more good people than it will deter the ones you are
> trying to
> keep out.
>
> Some people know how things work, others do not. Filter based on
that!
>
> Just my two cents.
>
>
> Scott Morris, CCIE4 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/Service Provider) #4713,
> JNCIE-M
> #153, CISSP, et al.
> CCSI/JNCI-M/JNCI-ER
> VP - Technical Training - IPexpert, Inc.
> IPexpert Sr. Technical Instructor
>
> A Cisco Learning Partner - We Accept Learning Credits!
>
> smorris@ipexpert.com
>
> Telephone: +1.810.326.1444
> Fax: +1.810.454.0130
> http://www.ipexpert.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
Of
> Brad
> Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:40 PM
> To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> It might suck, but that would definitely solve a bunch of problems:
>
> 1) It would make it much harder for those "real test sites" to get
> updates
> 2) The backlog wouldnb t be so bad - there would be a lot more seats
> available
> 3) People would stop using the "take the test every 30 days until I
> pass"
> technique. I know a few folks who have taken the lab like that 8 or
more
> times until they pass. (This method gives a high percentage of "same
> lab"
> possibilities.)
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher M. Heffner [mailto:cheffner@certified-labs.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 11:07 AM
> To: Brad Ellis; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Now that would really "suck" big time!
>
> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>
> www.certified-labs.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Ellis [mailto:brad@ccbootcamp.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 2:22 PM
> To: Christopher M. Heffner; Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> I've heard that Cisco may change their re-take policy from 30 days to
6
> months for failed tests...but just rumors so far.
>
> thanks,
> Brad Ellis
> CCIE#5796 (R&S / Security)
> CCSI# 30482
> CEO / President
> CCBOOTCAMP - A Cisco Sponsored Organization (SO)
> Email: brad@ccbootcamp.com
> Toll Free: 877-654-2243
> Direct: +1-702-968-5100 = Outside the USA
> Skype: skype:ccbootcamp?call
> FAX: +1-702-446-8012
> YES! We take Cisco Learning Credits!
> Training And Remote Racks: http://www.ccbootcamp.com
>
> Register to win a free iPhone! http://www.ccbootcamp.com/iphone.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
Of
> Christopher M. Heffner
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 10:32 AM
> To: Eric Dobyns; Brian Dennis
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
> Importance: Low
>
> Please DON'T give them any ideas.
>
> This is an expensive enough profession.
>
> Chris Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
> Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
>
> www.certified-labs.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Dobyns [mailto:eric_dobyns@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 1:43 PM
> To: 'Brian Dennis'; Christopher M. Heffner
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: RE: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Right now, I think they could charge twice that and still fill up
their
> seats.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nobody@groupstudy.com [mailto:nobody@groupstudy.com] On Behalf
Of
> Brian Dennis
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:22 PM
> To: Christopher M. Heffner
> Cc: ccielab@groupstudy.com; security@groupstudy.com;
> comserv@groupstudy.com
> Subject: Re: CCIE Lab Price Increase
>
> Someone "announced" it here a few weeks ago ;-)
>
> Brian Dennis, CCIE4 #2210 (R&S/ISP-Dial/Security/SP)
> bdennis@internetworkexpert.com
>
> Internetwork Expert, Inc.
> http://www.InternetworkExpert.com
> Toll Free: 877-224-8987
> Direct: 775-745-6404 (Outside the US and Canada)
>
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Christopher M. Heffner wrote:
>
> > Did anyone else notice the lab price increase made by Cisco for the
> > CCIE Labs?
> >
> >
> >
> > I noticed when checking lab dates that the price for the lab is now
> > $1400.00 per attempt.
> >
> >
> >
> > I donb t see any announcement on the CCIE website for the price
> > increase.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this just being quietly changed without an announcement?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Christopher M. Heffner, CCIE 8211, CCSI 98760
> >
> > Strategic Network Solutions, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > HYPERLINK "http://www.certified-labs.com/"www.certified-labs.com
> >
> >
> >
> > b(*
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date:
> > 10/3/2007 10:08 AM
>
>
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