From: Matt Wagner (miguknom@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Sep 18 2002 - 19:22:04 GMT-3
I swear I wasn't going to chime in on this (I rarely do), but come on...
Did I really hear someone say that the certification ensures that best
practices are followed? I am pursuing my CCIE diligently and I respect
everyone else who is (whatever their motivation), but I have taken the lab
and it had NOTHING to do with best practice. It had a lot to do with nook
and cranny tricks and obscure problem resolution. Surely the lab shows that
someoone knows their way around the IOS and understands layer 2 and 3
technologies and topologies. It also indicates that they can work
effectively under tremendous pressure. But best practices? That comes from
experience in the field seeing what really works and what doesn't. It comes
from watching people better than you and figuring out why their solution is
better. It comes from spending a lot of time on sites like SANS and CERT.
It comes from getting black eyes for doing things the wrong way. As a
matter of fact, when I interview people one of the questions I ask is "what
is the worst screw up you ever made?" If they were to say "well, once in a
CCIE bootcamp I..." they wouldn't make it to the next question. I know that
some people without experience disagree with me. I knew it was true before
I had experience (years ago when I was a paper MCSE). If this sounds way
out there, then I am on the wrong list.
Matt
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Olive, Darren" <Darren.Olive@globalcrossing.com>
Reply-To: "Olive, Darren" <Darren.Olive@globalcrossing.com>
To: "'Tom Larus'" <tlarus@cox.net>, ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: RE: MS-CCIE
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:26:46 -0400
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I would say that it is best to have the experience & the certification. The
certification ensures that best practices are adhered to, as someone who has
his experience alone may not appreciate the 'correct' way of doing things.
On the other hand, the "lab rat" comment strikes me as being made by an
individual who has a problem with people with a higher intellect and is a
sweeping generalisation that those with certs only ever read books and never
actually put what they learn into practice.
I would hazard a guess that most of the individuals on this list are
seasoned professionals who are using the CCIE as a way of measuring their
own ability and focusing their studies.
Just my 2 cents!
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Larus [mailto:tlarus@cox.net]
Sent: 18 September 2002 14:55
To: ccielab@groupstudy.com
Subject: MS-CCIE
If the CCIE is not worth much these days, and you are in it primarily for
the
money, and you already have a good job, and respect, and know so much more
than those "lab rat" CCIEs, just stop pursuing the CCIE.
You don't need it.
You should stand pat on your experience and be comfortable in knowing that
years of experience will always trump demonstrated intelligence.
Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014
----- Original Message -----
From: "rich" <rich@pixguru.com>
To: <ccielab@groupstudy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: MS-CCIE
> A couple of years ago, at the height of the dot com era, a CCIE in my
area
> could easily pull in 150k. Did I start down this road for the money?
Hell
> yes. I already had field experience, a good job, seniority, respect, and
all
> that stuff that makes work fun. Besides, CCIE would be a challenge. But
a
> LOT has changed in the past couple of years. Bad economy. Fewer jobs.
> Lowered salaries. And apparently a butt load of CCIE's! I mean wow!
And
to
> hear that many of them are just lab ccie's really brings the 8000+ CCIE's
into
> a different light. It brings my own efforts into the same light. It
reminds
> me of what happened to Novell certifications... I had just gotten my CNE
when
> I heard the term 'paper CNE' about a guy at the same company who carried
cue
> cards around to customers with commands written on them.
>
> I haven't gotten my ccie yet but I'm hoping to. My chances would
probably
be
> greatly enhanced by going to a boot-camp, but I feel that would just add
to
> the problem. Maybe limiting the number of active CCIE's in a country
would
> keep the certification from getting too bloated. Or maybe just stop the
> certification process now or at a fixed number. Or better yet, allow no
more
> than 1000 a year (total) to be certified. Candidate selection process
could
> be a weighted drawing (increased chances every year).
>
> I'm not trying to criticize anyone's efforts, but rather express the
results
> of those efforts. It's kind of liking moving into a new, quiet,
expensive
> neighborhood. It's great until everyone else moves in, and suddenly that
> expensive house isn't worth what you paid for it.
A man said to the Universe, "Sir, I exist".
The Universe replied, "The fact may be,
but it inspires in me no sense of obligation."
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